How High Did The Bow Rise Up?

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How High Did The Bow Rise Up?

Postby Aaron2010 » Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:21 pm

Survivors saw the bow rise up for a few moments when she broke in two. I believe the water had not flooded the upper decks and this gave the bow some lift when she was cut free from the stern. The heaviest part of the ship were the engines in the middle, and this may have forced the ship to sink down rapidly in the middle when she broke. How high do you think the bow rose up? I doubt it was many feet, but it was certainly enough to bring the boat deck up.




Titanicbreak01.jpg


Titanicbreak02.jpg
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Titanicbreak03.jpg


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Here are survivor accounts:



Eugene Daly
"I reached a collapsible boat that was fastened to the deck by two rings. It could not be moved. During that brief time that I worked on cutting one of those ropes, the Titanic gave a lurch downward and we were in the water up to our hips. She rose again slightly, and I succeeded in cutting the second rope which held her stern. Another lurch threw this boat, myself, off and away from the ship into the water."


William Mellors
"Suddenly, her nose on which I was, seemed to suddenly rise from underneath the water and I and a few more that were close by cut the ropes that held the boat to the falls (davits).


Mrs Ida Hippach
"We heard a fearful explosion. I saw the ship split open. At the same time the ship’s bow rose up in the air as the steamer sank towards the center."


Jack Thayer
"The ship appeared to split, well forward to midship, and bow or buckle upwards."


Lady Duff Gordon
"A dull explosion shook the air. A louder explosion followed and the bows of the great ship shot upwards out of the water."



Also here is a survivor account in Simon Angel's Titanic book 'Everything Was Against Us':

"Further forward, the water had now spilled on to the boat deck itself and passengers and crew found themselves ankle deep in water. Inexplicably, the ship seemed to struggle to maintain buoyancy, as the water level fell, leaving the area dry once more before surging aft with renewed force in a huge wave."




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Re: How High Did The Bow Rise Up?

Postby Eric K. Longo » Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:55 pm

It could be vantage. What was Lightoller's experience and opinion?

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Re: How High Did The Bow Rise Up?

Postby Aaron2010 » Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:57 pm

Lightoller jumped into the sea just as the ship broke in two. He said:


"Finally, the ship took a dive, reeling for a moment, then plunging. There was an explosion.....there was another explosion, and I came to the surface. The ship seemed to be heaving tremendous sighs as she went down."


Does that mean the bow was rocking from side to side and bobbing up and down as it struggled to regain buoyancy after breaking off? The lower decks were flooded but the air inside the upper decks A, B, C must have stopped the ship from sinking like a stone. She dipped down, but came back up, and the crew had time after she broke to get the last collapsible off the ship before she plunged again.



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Re: How High Did The Bow Rise Up?

Postby Eric K. Longo » Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:53 pm

Hello Aaron,

I was suggesting that from his POV, Lightoller thought the ship sank in one piece. Perhaps my memory is going.

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Re: How High Did The Bow Rise Up?

Postby Aaron2010 » Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:59 pm

True. Lightoller told the inquiry the Titanic sank "intact" but he also said: "The ship had turned around while I was under the water." Did he really think the entire ship could turn around in a few seconds while he was under water? When the ship broke, the stern section turned around and faced the opposite way. Did Lightoller really think the whole ship, over 880 feet long could "turn around" "intact" during those few moments he spent under water? It must have occurred to him at some later point that the ship must have broken in two in order for that to happen.



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Re: How High Did The Bow Rise Up?

Postby ardtornish » Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:19 pm

I don't think the bow rose at all.

Lightholler was swimming toward the crows nest when he was washed-off the top of the bridge. Here's what he said:


" Well, I was swimming out towards the head of the ship, the crow's-nest. I could see the crow's-nest. The water was intensely cold, and one's natural instinct was to try to get out of the water. I do not know whether I swam to the foremast with that idea, but of course I soon realised it was rather foolish, so I turned to swim across clear of the ship to starboard. The next thing I knew I was up against that blower on the fore part of the funnel. There is a grating."[/i]

If he was swimming toard the Crow's Nest' with the idea of climbing into it then the 'nest' was at the same level as the top of the bridge. The fact that he found himself back against the engine room blower on top of the wheelhouse suggests that Titanic was going down at a very shallow angle or simply finally settling at that moment.

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Re: How High Did The Bow Rise Up?

Postby Aaron2010 » Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:08 pm

I think the bow was flooding but not ready to sink. The full weight of the ship and the engines were pulling it down, but when she broke the Titanic would become two seperate ships. The ballast from decks A-C would hold the bow up again after the first plunge. The bow would plunge for a moment when it broke away from the stern and this is when Lightoller took his chance and lept into the water towards the crowsnest, but the bow would bob back up because it was not ready to founder, not until Decks A - C were flooded. I wonder if the air inside these decks exploded out of the back. Survivors saw sparks, coal, and enormous plumes of smoke bursting out of the broken area.



2nd class survivor Mrs Charlotte Collyer said:


"It came with a deafening roar that stunned me. Something in the very bowels of the Titanic exploded and millions of sparks shot up to the sky, like rockets in a park on the night of a summer holiday. This red spurt was fan shaped as it went up, but the sparks descended in every direction in the shape of a fountain of fire. Two other explosions followed, dull and heavy, as if below the surface. The Titanic broke in two before my eyes. The fore part was already partly under the water. It wallowed over and disappeared instantly. The stern reared straight on end and stood poised on the ocean for many seconds. They seemed minutes to me. It was only then that the electric lights on board went out. Cries more terrible than I had ever heard rang in my ears. I turned my face away, but looked round the next instant and saw the second half of the great ship slip below the surface as easily as a pebble in a pond. I shall always remember that last moment as the most hideous of the whole disaster."



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Re: How High Did The Bow Rise Up?

Postby ardtornish » Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:58 pm

Hello Aaron.

The quote you gave containds the following:

"The Titanic broke in two before my eyes. The fore part was already partly under the water. It wallowed over and disappeared instantly. "

That does not suggest that the forepart rose but that it sunk i.e. disappeared. Perhaps the expression "wallowed-over" is a mis-print or mis-undestanding and should be "Swallowed-over"?

I have taken the liberty of adjusting your sketches.

Titanicbreak02.jpg
Titanicbreak02.jpg (24.28 KiB) Viewed 422 times



The horizontal red line is the proper internal waterline and the blue and red hatching is the additional water within the forward part of the hull.
As you can see, there was no way that Titanic's bow could have momentarily become partially buoyant again. You forget that water cannot lie on a slope as shown in your sketches. It always becomes level. Additionally; the second the hull was open to the sea by fracturing vertically; the interior would become inubdated by sea water exerting enormous opressure on exposed , light construction, non-watertight bulkheads between compartments. These would immediately collapse. and cause an instant and increasing loss of buoyancy.

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Re: How High Did The Bow Rise Up?

Postby Aaron2010 » Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:24 pm

I think the bow was not flooded when the Titanic broke in two. Charles Joughin was down in the pantry on E-deck when he heard the ship breaking apart. He said, "I did not notice her being much down by the head," and there was only a small amount of water at his feet. I think if the bow was significantly flooded the ship would be very noticeably down by the head and E-deck would be badly flooded. I think he did not feel a strong list because there was nothing very noticeable before the Titanic broke apart, and he did not see much water on E-deck because it was moving back and flooding the rooms below him. It would travel along Scotland Road and ease off any downward tilt. The water would not flood decks A - D before the breakup, and the bow would come back up after the momentary plunge caused by the break up. The bow would shake and tremble as it rapidly filled with water and then go down very quickly the second time.




Titanic1a.JPG


Titanic1b.JPG


Titanic1c.JPG


Titanicbreak03.jpg




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Re: How High Did The Bow Rise Up?

Postby ardtornish » Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:11 pm

Sorry Aaron!

It would be impossible for any vessel to remain on an even keel with water in her hull the ay you show it on your sketch.
Very much of Joughlin's evidence is highly suspect. eg he was swimming for two hours in very cold water.. not true. He eventually found a collapsible floating on it's side.. not true.

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Re: How High Did The Bow Rise Up?

Postby Eric K. Longo » Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:45 am

+1

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Re: How High Did The Bow Rise Up?

Postby David G. Brown » Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:04 pm

As for Joughin, his testimony holds together remarkably well when put into the full context of both his actions and the events taking place around him. Early on, he is quite specific in his narrative. His details dovetail perfectly with actions we know were taking place around him – primarily loading lifeboats. His story about tossing deck chairs overboard might seem a bit melodramatic if it were not for ship's barber Weichman who rescued himself with some errant floating deck chairs that likely would not have been in the water at that time without Joughin's efforts.

Later, Joughin describes water on the deck of his cabin where it could not have been unless something was happening to the hull well aft of the original iceberg damage. Going above, he goes on to recall the sound of metal tearing beneath him when he was in the small A deck pantry in way of funnel #3. Then, his explanation of how he moved aft, eventually on the starboard side of the ship fits with Titanic's well-known (but usually ignored) roll to port at the very end.

Once in the water Joughin's memories become increasingly clouding and problematic. Anyone with modern knowledge of hypothermia would predict this change. The affects of cold mimic those of overindulgence in alcohol. A victim's speech blurs and he loses muscle coordination. (Note: I've seen these first-hand in victims I've rescued from much warmer water.) People who have recovered from hypothermia have reported foggy memories and a sense of altered time. Events which took only minutes in reality seem to have spanned an hour or more in the victim's mind. And, those are easily observed in Joughin's testimony about the time he spent paddling in the water.

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